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Tuesday, May 22, 2007

Dera Sacha Sauda and I

As I keep track of the coverage, in newspapers and on television, of the Dera Sacha Sauda controversy, there are a few things that strike me as strange.

Firstly, the Dera has been described as a 'Sikh sect' in certain sections of the news media, whereas it has nothing to do with Sikhism (or any other religious faith, as for that matter).

Secondly, something that has been part of conversations in urban drawing-rooms and rural baithhaks in Punjab i.e. the Dera head issued an edict to his followers to vote for Congress (I) in the recent state assembly elections, only because that party offered to help 'dispose off' the criminal cases filed against the Baba and his followers (the charges include murder and sexual abuse), in case it was able to form the government, does not appear to have been mentioned in any newspaper or on any television channel.

Thirdly, most media reports seem to imply that the Sikhs have been outraged merely by the fact that the Baba appeared dressed like Guru Gobind Singh, whereas, the truth is that he not only dressed like the Guru, but also attempted to replicate, to a large extent, what the Guru did on the day of the foundation of the Khalsa (in spite of the counter-claims made in the latest press statement put out by the Dera). He tried to do a 'role play', in which he put himself in the place of the Tenth Master.

I have had an inkling that the Baba harboured such ambitions, for a long time. For several years now, the Dera has been publishing calenders with photographs of his, in which he can be seen on a white horse or in other poses imitating the way, in which Guru Gobind Singh has often been depicted in paintings. Perhaps others, too, have noticed all that and at least some of what has happened over the past few days has been the culmination of events that have taken place over the past few years.

I think, however, that the media is right about the Shromani Akali Dal (the ruling party) versus Congress (I) angle to the violence. The hukam-naama calling for complete boycott of the Dera and its followers, in my opinion, would have put the message across clearly enough and the violence was unnecessary. Incidentally, though, the violence began when the Dera's supporters attacked a bunch of peaceful Akali protestors on May 14.

On a more personal note, the whole episode brought back memories of my own connection with the Dera.

Even as news media have been reporting that the Dera's followers comprise Sikhs mainly from the so-called backward castes (I believe they are among some of the most privileged people in Punjab today, but that is another story altogether.), there are some who are Jatt Sikhs also, as in the case of one such unfortunate example from my family. My paternal great-grandfather had five brothers, the youngest of whom became an ardent follower of the Dera Sacha Sauda. A few years later, the elder of his two sons followed in his footsteps. He, in fact, went a few steps farther than his father in terms of his devotion to the cult and got involved with its management and administration. Hard-working and honest as he was, he soon rose among the ranks and was widely billed as a likely candidate for a high-ranking position in the Dera hierarchy (Some of my elders tell me that he was expected to be made the head of the Dera, although I am not absolutely sure about this.).

Then, one day, while he was at the Dera premises, he was poisoned and his corpse delivered home in a tractor-trolley on the next. The father, the devout follower that he was, refused to file a case of murder with the police and also forbade the rest of the family from doing so.

This happened many years ago (in the early 1980's), much before Baba Gurmeet Ram Rahim took over as chief, but has been proof enough, at least for me, that sleaze has always been an integral part of this cult.

I wonder if there have been other cases, as well, when unnatural deaths at the Dera have gone unreported.

22 comments:

Sidhusaaheb said...

>> hukam-naama calling for complete boycott of the Dera and its followers, in my opinion, would have put the message across clearly enough

By the same logic, whats wrong with caste Hindus boycotting ‘untouchables’ over hundreds of years?

Any entity which calls for discrimination and hatred against another set of people has to be condemned. Hukum-naamas especially of this kind have no place in a civilized society.
Balaji | Homepage | 05.22.07 – 7:02 pm | #

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First of all, the hukam-naama of the Akal Takht was only for Sikhs and has nothing to do with non-Sikhs and it can hardly be expected of them to understand its importance, unless they do some research first.

Secondly, the boycott is meant to be enforced until an unqualified apology is rendered by the Dera chief.

In a civilised society, the Dera chief would have apologised a long time ago instead of striking a posture like the one he has and his supporters would not have indulged in unprovoked violence against peaceful Sikh demonstrators.

Going by your logic, Mahatma Gandhi would also seem to have indulged in ‘discrimination’ and ‘hatred’ against the British, when he launched his Satyagrah against them.

Sikhism was founded to rid the society of its many ills including the caste system. It is unfortunate that after a few hundred years, the influence of living in Indian society has caused it to creep back even among the Sikhs, to a certain extent.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 05.22.07 – 8:01 pm | #

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>> the hukam-naama of the Akal Takht was only for Sikhs

yeah, Untouchability was also practiced by select groups against the Dalits. What if a bunch of upper castes form a group and issue a ‘hukum-naama’ to their followers to boycott the Dalits? Won’t others protest?

what apology? What has Gurmeet Ram Rahim Singh done to apologize? If he treats Guru Gobind Singh as his idol and wants to imitate his acts, then he has every right to do so.

Your Mahatma/British logic really sucks. British were aggressors in our land. Now are you calling DSS as aggressors in Punjab?
Balaji | Homepage | 05.22.07 – 11:29 pm | #

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Mahatma/British logic is perfectly ok, because the Mahatma used boycott as a form of protest against something that was wrong. I am calling Dera Sacha Sauda those who have done something wrong and need to make amends for that.

Gurmeet Ram Rahim has a right to do what he wants, but not to parody others’ faith and since he has done that, he should apologise.

Untouchability has never been a part of Sikhism.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 05.22.07 – 11:59 pm | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

Bala says (on his blog)….“All the other ‘Gurus’ who followed him were members of one single family and some fought like warlords against the Mughals”….

First off, it was not one single family. It was a vastly branched extended family; if you do some reaserch you will know. And secondly, Sikhism set an example by passing Guruship to someone who was not a family member as done by Guru Nanak Dev jee. But Guru Nanak Dev jee did not make it a prerequisite that disqualifies one to become a Guru just for being a family member. If certain qualities were not seen in children of Guru, then Guru did not think it was right to pass the Guruship to sons. Sons of Guru Nanak Dev jee equally qualified in getting the Guruship as they had vast knowlwdge on the matter (religion) but they lacked on other qualities like humbleness, obedience, treating everyone at par. So by passing GuruShip to one of his own sons, Guru Nanak might have seen the possibility of the purpose being foiled for which Sikhism was initiated. Same was the case with other Gurus who had more than one sons but instead of passing the Guruship to the eldest son (that is/was the tradition prevalent in hollow Hindu Society), it was given to other (younger) sons, based on the the same ideology (of Guru Nanak Dev jee detailed above).

And if some of the Gurus didnot fight with Mughals like warlords, then you could bet your ass (even if you are an agnostics or an atheists) that you would have been celebrating id at a Mosque before you came to US and you would have been writing as “Balam Ali Khan” instead of Balaji Ganeshan and after 9/11, you would have to register yourself in US so that the US government could have your where abouts so that they could shove it up your ass as they have done it with many Muslims in US.

Bala Says….“And finally the Tenth Guru Gobind singh, who also established the Khalsa, nominated the Granth Sahib (the holy book) as the eternal ‘guru’. This may have been because all his children and wife were killed by the Mughals”….

This pretty much shows how handicapped you are when it comes to thinking broadly and correctly. You yourself said that Guruship was passed with in family. So if the immediate family of Guru Gobind Singh jee was no more, if he wanted another Guru in body form, he could have very well picked someone up from the extended family. But he pretty much saw what was coming in the future (people claiming to be Gurus like Gurmeet Ram Rahim, with no spiritual values) and he decided to put an end to it by installing (not nominating) the Holy Granth as Guru Granth.

Bala Says….“Now I cannot see what harm could have been caused if Baba Ram Rahim Singh had dressed himself like this tenth ‘Guru’. You guys want to burn Punjab for this?”….

I could understand if Ram Rahim Singh dressed like “Krishna or Rama or Shiva or Vishnu or Ganesha” and you asked the same question to Hindus.
Sifar | Homepage | 05.24.07 – 5:06 pm | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

Thanks for the comment!

I hope you have posted it on the relevant blog-post on Balaji’s blog, as well.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 05.24.07 – 5:36 pm | #

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Actually, here is the complete truncated last part of my first comment….

Bala Says….“Now I cannot see what harm could have been caused if Baba Ram Rahim Singh had dressed himself like this tenth ‘Guru’. You guys want to burn Punjab for this?”….

I could understand if Ram Rahim Singh dressed like “Krishna or Rama or Shiva or Vishnu or Ganesha” and you asked the same question to Hindus. They certainly would have no problem as Hinduism allows this and there may be hundreds of movies where actors may have acted as Hindu Gods. But have you ever seen a movie where you have seen any actor playing a role of Sikh Gurus. I have not seen any. The reason being that in Sikhism it is not a custom to act like Sikh Gurus, as a mark of respect to them. So to you as an outsider or an agnostic or an atheist it may be no big deal, but to a true Sikh it is.

Bala Says….“You cannot make people think unless you catch their attention. In anycase I know way too much about religions to indulge in a fight of ‘faith’ with you here to prove that”….

We do not need your post for us to motivate us to think. And if you really know that much about religions, then I don’t think your post would have sounded as if you were farting out of your ass, as pointed out by one of the comment writer.

Edited By Siteowner
Sifar | Homepage | 05.24.07 – 6:08 pm | #

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Thanks again!

The comment probably got truncated for exceeding the maximum length limit.

I have had to edit it very slighty, as I think it would not be appropriate to be disrespectful to another religion, while making some valid points about our own, as our Gurus have taught us. I hope you’ll understand!
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 05.24.07 – 6:43 pm | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

I neither belong to Sikhism nor to Dera Sacha Sauda, and recently, i had a chance to visit Dera Sacha Sauda, after all these controversies took place. I am an assistant to a media reporter, and was there in Sirsa to assist him.
Seeing both sides of the coin, it becomes very much clear that the Dera Chief had no intentions, and neither did he immitate the tenth sikh guru, shri guru gobind singh ji.
Why I say so, because i have done some research on Sikhism in the last few days, have gone and seen the history, and some sketches of guru gobind singh ji show no signs of the matching costume or any matching act. Apparently politics is the grounds for creating such controversies….And so far as you write in your bog about a person being poisoned, I too feel that you have simply cooked up the story all by yourself. I or any one else for that matter can write a blog, putting an allegation on you of having killed a person, Can someone stop anyone from doing that??? No. And this is exactly what you have done here. Please get the facts right before writing anything.

Sikhism or any other religion teaches love, and the Dera is just reemphasizing on these teachings by our great saints…..and laks of sikhs follow Dera…I dont think they would have done so, had Dera been against Sikhism.

So double check before you put up anything on net again!!
Thanks!!!
Armaan | 05.25.07 – 4:50 am | #

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From the looks of it, you definitely are a Dera follower.

Gurmit Ram Rahim parodied and mimicked the foundation of the Khalsa Panth by Guru Gobind Singh on the Baisakhi day of 1699 AD, at Anandpur Sahib.

He mimicked the sacred Sikh Amrit-Sanchar ceremony carried out by Guru Gobind Singh. He prepared a Ruhafza Sharbat (flavoured milk) drink, labeled it as the ‘Jam-e-InsaN’ (drink of humanity), administered it to the Sacha Sauda followers and announced the formation of the ‘InsaN Panth’, just like Guru Gobind Singh had prepared sweet nectar, called it Amrit, administered it to the Sikhs and announced the formation of the Khalsa Panth.

To inaugurate the ceremony, Ram Rahim first administered the drink to seven men and announced the forty-seven golden rules of the so-called InsaN Panth, which all members of the congregation must abide by. Later, Ram Rahim appeared in front of the seven men, whom he titled the ‘ Sat Sitare’ (Seven Stars), satirizing the ‘Panj Pyare’ (Beloved Five) of the Sikhs and asked them to carry out a ceremony to initiate him in this newly formed religious order, just as Guru Gobind Singh had first administered Amrit to and then asked the ‘ Panj Pyare’ to initiate him into the Khalsa Panth.

At this ceremony, Gurmit Ram Rahim was dressed in clothing much like that adorned by Guru Gobind Singh and so mimicked and parodied historical accounts of Vaisakhi in 1699, as far as he could.

As for the personal story about the murder of my paternal grandfather’s cousin at the Dera, I leave it to the discretion of the readers to believe it or not, even as I stand by every word that I have written.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 05.25.07 – 5:25 am | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

I am very much tempted to jump into this conversation. I am not a Hindu or Sikh or Christian but I am the new world’s latest threat.. I am a muslim and I happen to be from India.
I once wrote on this blog about how now I can relate to the Sikhs in the 1980’s, those looks, those comments, that suspicion, that mistrust that mass media missrepresentation etc.

Comming to Balaji’s point “Why I say so, because i have done some research on Sikhism in the last few days, have gone and seen the history, and some sketches of guru gobind singh ji show no signs of the matching costume or any matching act” Sorry to say but .. doing some resarch in few days, seeing som sketches or seeing history (whatever that meant) can never make you understand thing better than a guy who was born a Sikh and has been raised with the values and inside criticism of the religion he follows. It is very similar to saying that “I saw some hollywood movies and then went to New York and Los Angeles and Miami and tallked t people have comcluded that Americans half naked, but good natured people and that country can never indulge in any wrong doing” You have to come her and live within the communites and interatct with them and do it all over US to get SOME IDEA of what US and Americans are. Same is the case with you comments on Dear and Sikh dispute.
Diaz | 05.25.07 – 5:51 pm | #

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part 2
As a matter of fact this is the latest trend among educated people like you that I despise most. There are good people on the right who follow some religion and have some beliefs and there are good people onthe left who are secular and agnostics etc and they keep to themselves their beleif but then there are smart asses like you who think that they “know all” just because you READ and SAW some literature and pictures here and there and therefore you can now criticize and attack any person who defends or tries to stick to his faith.

The way I see the Dera sikh conflict is just like the Ahmadi muslims in Paksitan who Call themselves muslims and are followers of Mirza Ghulam AHmed who claimed to be the promised Messiah and Mahdi and that his advent was in fulfilment of the various prophecies regarding the promised reformer of the latter days. The problem was not why he believed whatever he believed but that he introduced something new and promoted himself as the promised one (FYI: as per the muslims belief one quality of the the promised reformer will be that he will hesitate and others who will identify him will insist and push him to be the leader). It would have been OK if he said that he and his followers are a new religion or sect and are a new entity ..just like the Nation of Islam sect in the US.
Diaz | 05.25.07 – 5:52 pm | #

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part 3

Bottom line is you want to create a new religion or sect.. thats fine but dont tell me how I should follow and understand my own religion or faith and that you understand better than me how somone’s actions have hurt my religious feelings.If cracking jokes at your gods and avatars is ok for you and is a laughing matter then thats fine withme. What isno fine with me is that you do the same for my God and religions and expect me to consider it a laughing matter like you. That is what is called fundamentalism and fanticism. To enforce your ideology on others. So if some sikhs felt offended by a “comical dressing up like Guru Sahib” then have all the right to protest agaisnt it.

Regards
Diaz | 05.25.07 – 5:52 pm | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

Thanks!

I appreciate your point of view very much, because, in India, not only those like Balaji, but even major sections of mainstream media have not tried to find out the reasons for the Sikhs’ feeling of outrage in this matter.

Ironically, the coverage in foreign media appears to have been more balanced than in Indian media.

For example, please take a look at this report in The Independent, London:

http://news.independent.co.uk/ wo…icle2565124.ece

It seems to have made more of an attempt to find out the reasons for outrage among the Sikhs.

The following passage has been extracted from this very report:

The advert appeared to show Gurmeet Singh administering a special nectar, known as Jaam-e-Insaan, to his followers while wearing the same long robes worn by the guru, Guru Gobind Singh – who was also known to baptise believers with nectar. Unlike Islam, where picturing the Prophet Mohamed is strictly forbidden, most Sikhs believe it is permissible to picture their gurus, and families often place a picture of the religion’s founding father, Guru Nanak Dev, somewhere in their homes. But pretending to be a guru is strictly forbidden.
“Impersonating a Sikh guru always runs the risk of outraging even the most moderate of sikhs,” says Jagtar Singh of the Sikh Federation’s UK branch. “Even if our schoolchildren were putting on a play about the gurus, we would never get anyone to actually play the role of one.

“Most Sikh groups believe Guru Gobind Singh was the final guru. Some people have since claimed themselves to be living gurus, something which is deeply offensive to most Sikhs.”
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 05.25.07 – 7:12 pm | #

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Armaan….

We all know how press in India work. Working in the press you say that there is no resemblense in clothing that Gurmeet Ram Rahim wore to that worn by 10th Guru. Then you are out of if you cannot even co-relate the drama staged by Gurmeet Ram Rahim to the historical event of 1699 baptismal ceremony organized by the 10th Guru. Someone is re inventing the wheel and you think it is his discovery.
Sifar | Homepage | 05.25.07 – 9:18 pm | #

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It is only now that sections of the media are waking up to some of this, it seems. I saw a reference in The Tribune, Chandigarh,( http://www.tribuneindia.com ) today, for the first time, related to the copying of the baptismal ceremony of Baisakhi, 1699.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 05.25.07 – 9:38 pm | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

Guys,
Nobody will get anything from hating/abusing anyone. As Guru Nanak ji had said “Jin Prem kiyo tin hi prabh payo”. Definitely the wrong doers will have to suffer, irrespective of the political games that they have been playing.

Let us see what the CBI reports have to say.

Satnam Shri Waheguru…..
Cherry | 05.29.07 – 2:15 pm | #

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According to the Punjab & Haryana High Court, the CBI has been trying to hush up the Dera cases.

The news story at the following URL provides the details of what the court had to say on the subject: http://www.tehelka.com/ story_mai…gh_court_CS.asp
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 05.29.07 – 3:47 pm | #

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What perplexes me most about these deras and babas is their sheer lack of originality. No one is stopping him to play God, if that is what he wishes to do. The only point or problem is, be original for heaven’s sake!…Dressing up as Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Krishan ji isn’t going to make him one and why does he lack the smarts form some cult/religion of his own if that is what his desire is? He needs to be brought to book for imitating and thus disrespecting beliefs/emotions of another community by enacting this costume drama!

Edited By Siteowner
Mannat Gill | 05.29.07 – 11:43 pm | #

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Sidhusaheb,

Posted the e-mail in case your blog required it.
Mannat Gill | 05.29.07 – 11:50 pm | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

These days, many ‘writers’ ‘write’ articles merely by changing the words of an original piece of work by another author. Similarly, script-writers of films regularly copy the stories of foreign-language movies, often after making very slight changes. Also, music ‘composers’ lift tunes from the works of musicians from distant lands quite often.

They can pass all that off as their own creation, mostly because the readers/movie-goers/listeners know little or nothing about the originals.

That seems to be the case with the Dera followers too.

Meanwhile, I have learnt recently that the Dera chief has been distorting Gurbani, as well, by mixing and matching the verses composed by various Sikh Gurus and creating some of his ‘own’.

For more details, please see: http://jhoothasauda.com/changing…ubanni-by-dera/

The author has provided evidence in the form of a photograph of a Dera message, which contains a line that has been formulated by taking portions from two Gurbani verses and passed off, obviously as something new and original.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 05.30.07 – 3:09 am | #

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Sidhusaheb,

I noticed you edited my post(you have every right to do so, because it’s your blog), but he needs a ………..!He seems to be a poorly made bollywood version(no offence to talented directors in bollywood)of a hit hollywood movie.

Edited By Siteowner
Mannat Gill | 05.30.07 – 12:48 pm | #

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Isn’t it all politically motivated? I mean as you pointed out, DSS has been going this stuff for quite some time (like the calendars and all), but its only now when Congress made inroads into SAD teritory with DSS support that the issue has taken so much prominence.
I feel, the demand to ‘close’ down DSS has roots not in religion but more likely in political circles. I do feel the public reaction has been fuelled for other gains.
just my 2 cents.
rajeev | Homepage | 05.31.07 – 10:24 am | #

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@Rajeev: There definitely is a SAD vs. Congress angle too, as I’ve mentioned in the blog-post.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 06.01.07 – 6:20 am | #

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@Mannat: I think I know how you feel. However, I hope you’ll understand!
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 06.01.07 – 6:24 am | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

thanks for the info – i did not understand much about this dera saccha sauda issue
cyberkitty | Homepage | 06.04.07 – 4:38 pm | #

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Sidhusaheb,

Yes, I understand.
Mannat Gill | 06.06.07 – 5:49 am | #

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@Cyberkitty: You’re welcome!

@Mannat: Thank you so much!
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 06.06.07 – 7:03 am | #

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Hi all,
Just read all the comments, counter comments and am amazed at the “research” that “authentic researcher” has done. What does he know of SIkhism? dss- I dont even want to give its name in caps- deserves to be closed down with all its disgrace by its side.
The question of hurting the Sikhs and their sentiments is there. But the biggest question is that they (and all other deras) defy the very basic Hukam of The Tenth Guru that there will be no more living gurus.
The Sikh leadership has not really shown a very learned, strong, and impartial response. But then that is nothing new for us.
Aggan’ de wich sarda reha, fer wi khideya reha ghulab,
Mera hassda rahey Punjab, mera wassda rahey Punjab.
Sifar, I m really really impressed with your words.
Sidhu, this is an amazing write up. Keep it up. The style, the content and the flow is admirable.
MP | Homepage | 06.18.07 – 5:08 pm | #

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Friend, as u suggested, I have put the link for downloading AnmolLipi font at the top of my blog. I invite you to read my detailled comments on this controversy.
Zafar
Jaswant S. Zafar | Homepage | 06.19.07 – 6:40 pm | #

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@MP: You’re right about the deras. There seems to be more vice than virtue there. Take a look at http://www.tehelka.com/ story_mai…uch_vice_CS.asp

Thanks for the compliments!

@Zafar: Thanks!
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 06.20.07 – 8:33 am | #

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check this out.
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070712/…/211/ 6hzej.html
CBI will nail all those people who will not support truth i.e if anybody in dera tried to tamper the evidence or lied, CBI and GOD will perish them the same way the GOD is insulting Ram Rahim.
chakde | 07.15.07 – 9:16 am | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

And ram rahim ordered his followers to kill newspaper editor and another dera follower ranjit singh. Definitely not a character of a pure saint.

And ram rahim will never admit his wrong doings because he is afraid of sentences.

A true ram rahim will normally admit the truth in advance without sacrificing thousands of innocent lives.

Dera chief and his close corrupt congress relatives Jassi involved in Ludhiana scam now own all the dera properties. In future there will be a dera scam too.

God is punishing dera chief because of his wrong doings. His negative publicity and his every day to day his action watched and punished by god as you can see. CBI is after him, Sikh community all over the world is now against him and looking for justice. It is all because god wants to put him into these kind of circumstances. Can’t you see?

Dera chief is with the charges of rapes, sexual molestation, killing innocent people and is a cold blood murder.

Dera followers are nice people but they are unable to see God’s punishment. I would like to advice all the sisters and brothers in dera to come out and seek for truth. Look at some of the statements made recently openly by of the dera representatives i.e. a given day in media they will say we have 2.5 crore followers, next day 1.5 crore. Why they are lying openly for such a small thing? Who cares if dera has 20 billion followers or 2 followers? Point is about representing the truth and the true statements in media. It’s a small example but there are millions out there. Just don’t lie please. When you lie or exhaustrate then you are not following the path of truth, god.

Because when ram rahim and his followers will admit the truth deep in his/their heart then everything will become fine.

Because at the end God is watching him.
khalsa dhanna jat | 07.17.07 – 4:17 am | #

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And Finally the truth:
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/ ho…00707231962.htm
PidduSaheb | 07.24.07 – 4:40 am | #

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i personally want to ask from sidhusaaheb that has he visited dera sacha sauda any time.
dimple | 07.28.07 – 7:21 am | #

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@Dimple: I haven’t and, believe me, if you start reading the Geeta or the Bible or the Quran or the Guru Granth Saahib on your own and to try and understand the message therein, you will also never again experience the need to go to the Dera Baba or any other Baba or Godman, at any point of time in your life.

Sufficient literature is available these days, in simple language, to enable even the lay-person to understand these texts.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 07.28.07 – 7:58 am | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

okey, it means u havn’t visited, then on what base u can say anything about dera sacha sauda.
dimple | 07.28.07 – 10:26 am | #

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@Dimple: If you would care to read the blog-post again, you would realise that I did not have to visit the place at all, for coming to know all that I have written about.

Meanwhile, please do consider my suggestion about reading the religious texts on your own.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 07.28.07 – 12:34 pm | #

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Congrats Sidhu Saab, for taking the cause & message of Sikhism forward without hurting any other religion .. which in itself is a message of Sikhism not to disrespect any other faith !! What you have posted is verified by the charge sheeting of Dera Chief in two murder & a rape case !! As I belong to Bhatinda area strong base of Dera .. what is coming out has been evident for quite some time.. what was required was appropriate action by the authorities !!
Harpreet Singh | Homepage | 08.02.07 – 7:46 am | #

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so,

i think this is totally rubbish and he is a mad person who say anything about Dera ..,,

hey one suggesion for u >>sadhu
raju | 08.11.07 – 4:45 pm | #

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@Harpreet: Thanks! I sincerely hope that the trials shall be conducted speedily and the verdicts delivered soon, in order to bring a sense of closure to the families of the victims.

@Raju: I’d say your comment speaks volumes about your own state of mind.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 08.11.07 – 6:00 pm | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

check this out….

http://derasachasaudawelfareacti…s.blogspot.com/

apparently these guys have a group formed for welfare activities…..
cherry | 09.02.07 – 4:35 pm | #

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I wonder if any of these welfare activities are aimed at helping those whose land the Dera took away by force or by dubious means, the kin of those murdered by the Dera followers at their leader’s behest or the women raped by the Dera chief and the families of these women.

I wonder if you’ve seen the following link, which I had posted in an earlier comment too: http://www.tehelka.com/ story_mai…uch_vice_CS.asp
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 09.02.07 – 5:05 pm | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

I am a Dera Sacha Sauda Follower. And very much annoyed with all these wrong illogical comments, you should not comment about anybody unless you have not gotten full detail about that personality.

Lots of false stories have been cooked up during these few months about Dera Sacha Sauda and still some people are continue cooking them up.

And most intersting fact is that most of these persons who are saying wrong about Dera Sacha Sauda have never visited to Dera Sacha Sauda and any person who have ever visit to Dera Sacha Sauda never said wrong about Dera Sacha Sauda after seeing truth.
Because Dera Sacha Sauda is like a open book and anybody can read it who have ever visited here.

It is not a new thing that truth always get protest from Evil. It has happened in past with every Saint that wrong allegations are put against them to defame them. It happend with Sri Gurunanak Dev ji, it happened with Kabir Sahib ji, It happend with Namdev Ji that wrong and very vile allegations were put on them by wrong peoples of that time to defame them but they never get sucess. Even some saints were tortured physically like in Sikh History everyone knows that few of them out of ten Gurus of them were tortured.Today everyone knows those saints but no one knows the name of those people those who did it to defame them. Same is happening with Dera Sacha Sauda now a days.

But is also true that truth can not be hide so long. So Truth will reveals one day itself to everyone. And that day all of you people will repent on your these comments.

And i am sure Truth will be revealed very soon in the matter of Dera Sacha Sauda. And people who did all this conspiracy to defame Dera Sacha Sauda will be Behind the Bars very soon. And Dera Sacha Sauda Will contiue to shine as it was shining, as it is shining now and it will always be shinging forever. Then people will realise that who was wrong and who was right.
Raju Insaan | 09.03.07 – 11:18 am | #

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The details continue to pour in every day.

I join you in hoping that the truth does come out, ultimately, and that justice is done. Although, the honourable High Court of Punjab and Haryana believes that every possible attempt is being made to hush up the truth. Find out more about this at: http://www.tehelka.com/ story_mai…gh_court_CS.asp

Meanwhile, there are no reports of the Dera chief having been tortured so far, by anyone. He, in fact, continues to live a life of luxury, as he has always done.

More importantly, he differs from great personalities in Sikh history as he does not seem to have too many original ideas. The Dera followers, who do not know where their chief’s ideas have been plagiarised from, would of course be impressed by what he says. For example, according to one of the ‘messages’ put by the Dera:

“One of the Great Saints Said :–

“Manas Ki Sab Ek Jaat Hai Kaun Bhale Kaun Mande”"

Now this would obviously sound great to those who do not know that this is a product of plagiarism and has been formulated by copying bits and pieces from:

“Maanas ki jaat sabhai ekai pehchaanbo”

and

“Awwal Allah Noor upaaya, kudrat ke sab bande
Ek Noor se sab jag upjyaa, kaun bhale ko mande”

Those who were born in Sikh families, but have never bothered to try and read the Guru Granth Saahib, alongwith those who were born in Hindu families and haven’t read the Srimad Bhagwad Geeta so far, are obviously going to find the Dera chief’s ideas revolutionary, without knowing where he has plagiarised the ideas from.

Therefore, Mr. Raju, as I had written in a previous comment, if you start reading the Geeta or the Bible or the Quran or the Guru Granth Saahib on your own and to try and understand the message therein, you will never again experience the need to go to the Dera Baba or any other Baba or Godman, at any point of time in your life.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 09.03.07 – 1:21 pm | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

**COMMENTING AGIAIN DUE TO Excess Chracters
I think you are out of one of them who say anything without clearing and knowing facts and try to

prove himself more wise in front of others.First of all i should clear to you that in the Dera

Sacha Sauda scriptures of all religions are treated respectfully.
And it is never hideen in congeragations by Guruji that from which scripture this couplet has

been taken and by which Saint or Guru it has been written.

Thousands of times Guruji told in front of million of followers in different

congragations(Satsangs) that :
Sikh panth ke Dasven Guru Sri Gruru Gobind Singh Ji Gurubani mein likhten hain:
Manas Ki Jaat ko sab ekay Pachan bo!

And this is told thousand of time by Guruji that “Gurubani ki Shuruat Jin Sahbdon se hoti hai wo

hain:”
“Ek Onkar”
Yani ki wo malik ek hai uske naam jaror alag hai.Koi use Allah Kahta hai,koi use bagwan kahta hai,Koi use waheguru kahta hai aur koi use god kahta hai.Now tell me is there any intention to hide that from where these scripture has been taken after seeing above lines.
If still anybody has doubt in his mind only one cassate of any satsant(Congregation) will be

enough to hear to clear all your Doubts.Or anyone can arrive itself in any satsang organized

daily by Guruji at Dera Sacha Sauda.
And if somebody can not come Dera Sacha Sauda or not have any cassate of Guruji Satsang.You can

listen thier Holy Discourses on TV Channels shown Daily on Some News Channels.

Timings Are as follows:
Channel Timing
Sahara Samay 5:30 Am(Daily)
Sab TV 6:00 Am(Daily)
Sadhna TV 9:10 Am(Daily)
Total TV 6:00 & 1:00 Am(Daily)
Jain TV 7:00 Am(Sunday)
You will find that every religion is respected by Dera Sacha Sauda and GuruJi Himself after

seeing these satsang.And nothing wrong is said about anybody.Only 100% Truth is preached

in these discourses.
Time will prove this very soon.Because believe me that Dera Sacha Sauda is new hope of a bright India.A new revolutionary era is waiting for world.Time has come to see another Golden Age where nothing live else than truth.And there is one sentence that has been said by our GuruJI:
“Sare Jahan Mein Hoga Ek hi Naam Shah Satnam..,Shah Satnam”
It is the name of the Second reverend Saint of the Dera Sacha Sauda.

And now as all knows sayings of saints never proved wrong,because as it is said in Gurubani “Sant Bachan Palte Nahi,Palat Jaye Brahmand(Universe)”.And all world will see it happening true Very Soon.

All the false allegation those have been made against Dera Sacha Sauda will prove wrong very soon

and moreover this difficult time is giving a new spiritual strength to Dera Sacha Sauda,because

it is also true that whenever lie and hatered spread anywhere then God also increase its Divine

Power to give strength to its Childs to cop up againgst that lie.”Gold shines more after passing through Fire.”
And it is also truth that “Tr
Raju Insaan | 09.04.07 – 9:26 pm | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

@Raju: Thanks for the comment!

Meanwhile, your comment got truncated once again for having exceeded the character limit. So, you might want to comment again to complete your discourse.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 09.05.07 – 4:42 am | #

——————————————————————————–

I am not giving any discourse,i am saying only truth.And truth is that:

“Chahe Koi Kitna bhi jor lagale,chahe koi kitne bhi haath pair chalaye,na to kabhi koi sach ko rok paya tha aur na hi koi rok payega.Dera Sacha Sauda Sach ka naam hai aur sach kabhi nahi rukta aur na hi kabhi chupta hai.Haan kuch Der ke liye jooth ke badal sach ko dak sakte hain,lekin sach rupi suraj ko hamesha ke liye nahi chupa sakte.Aagar jooth ke badal kuch der ke liye sach ke sooraj ko chupane ke baad yeh soche ki hamne sach ko hamesha ke liye chupa liya to yeh unki GalaTFahmi hai.Yeh to hamesha se hi hota Aya hai Ki Hamesha sache santon ko log nicha dikhane ki koshish karte hain.Aur phir yeh to kalyug hai jahan par har taraf sirf jooth ka hi bolbala hai,to phir aise samay mein kaise ho sakta tha ki log sache santon par joothe aarop na lagayen.Jab sach chalta hai to burai tilmila utathi hai aur sach ka rasta rokne ki koshish karti hai lekin jeet to hamesha sachai ki hoti hai.Aur sach ko koi jitna rokne ki koshish karta hai sach utna hi teji se badta hai.”

“LEKIN DERA SACHA SAUDA PYAR AUR SACH KA EK AISA Sagar HAI JISE AAGE BADNE SE KOI NAHI ROK SAKTA.AUR YEH SACH KA Sager TO AISE HI AAGE BADTA JAYEGA AUR HAR BURAI KO APNE SAATH BAHA KAR LE JAYEGA.KYONKI BAANDH LAGAKAR SIRF NADI-NALON KO HI ROKA JA SAKTA HAI Sagar KO NAHI.”

Dera Sacha Sauda would Emerge as World Power very soon.Because it is the time of neo creation of this world for the sake of Re-establishment of Truth.And neo creation only can be done by True saint in this world.On this earth none other than the true saint has the power to change this world.Only a true saint can do this by his unlimited spiritual power.Anything a true saint does in his life it has a sacred motive behind that task.A simple person can not understand the motive behind the that task and saying untill the right time arrives.So it means anything that is happening with Dera Sacha Sauda,people cant unederstand that now.People think that Dera Sacha Sauda is under big problem now,but they cant understand it,Only coming time will let them help to understand the current scenerio.

“KYONKI AAM ADMI KE LIYE SACHE SANTO KI RAMAJ KO SAMJNA MUSHKIL HI NAHI ASAMBHAV HOTA HAI.LEKIN TIME AANE PAR HI LOGON KO ISKI SAMAJH AATI HAI.Aaj Jo Kuch Bhi Dera Sacha Sauda Ke Saath Ho Raha Hai Use Dekh Kar Logon Ko Lagta Hai Ki Dera Sacha Sauda Mushkil Mein Hai,Lekin Santon Ki Kya Ramaj Hai Yeh Wohi Jante Hai.Jab Sacha Satguru Kisi Ke Sath Ho To Usko Kisi Se Darne Ki Jarrorat Nahi Hoti.Aur Jab Dera Sacha Sauda Sache SATGURU JI Ne Banaya HAI To Dera Sacha Sauda KO KISI SE DARNE KI KOI JARORAT NAHI HAI.Jo Samay Chal Raha Hai Uske Peeche Unki Kya Ramaj Hai Yeh To Sache Satguru Ji HI Jante Hai,Lekin Jo Kuch Bhi HoGa WO Acha Hi Hoga IS BAAT mein koi Doubt NAHI Hai.”
Hum to Bas Itna Jante Hain:
Saare Jahan Mein Hoga Ek Hi Naam Shah Satnam..Shah Satnam..”
Raju Insaan | 09.05.07 – 10:15 pm | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

I quite agree that the Dera Sacha Sauda is, in fact, benefitting from the free publicity!

“KYONKI AAM ADMI KE LIYE SACHE SANTO KI RAMAJ KO SAMJNA MUSHKIL HI NAHI ASAMBHAV HOTA HAI”

That sounds like it’s been inspired by:

“DON KO PAKADNA MUSHKIL HI NAHI, NA-MUMKIN HAI!”

“Aur phir yeh to kalyug hai jahan par har taraf sirf jooth ka hi bolbala hai” I agree! How else do you think the Dera has been getting away with coercion, murder and sexual abuse and exploitation, so far? With the justice system of the country being the way it is, it is quite possible that the Dera chief and the criminals among his followers might go scot-free, helped along the way by the Congress governments at the centre and in Haryana. Look at what has happened in the case of Ottavio Quattrocchi and, more recently, in the case of Shibu Soren.

Anyway, that must’ve been quite a release of pent-up emotion for you, Mr. Raju, and I am sure you must be feeling much better now!
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 09.06.07 – 5:23 am | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

Sidhusheeb

“Wah! koi blog chalana to tumse sikhe, Jo ji chahta hai sirf Wahi COMMENT ko Display Karte ho.MERI Previous Comment ko to tumne DISPLAY hi nahi hone Diya” Apne against to koi comment tum display hi nahi hone dete. “Upaar Mannat Gill Ne bhi yahi kaha hai ki tumne Uski Comment ko EDIT kar Diya. Sirf Jooth hi Display Hone dete ho Sach to DISPLAY hi nahi hone dete tum.

Maine Apni Pahle Wali Comment mein bataya tha KIS Tarah Sikh Dharam MEin kisi ki bhi ninda ko aur KHAS kar Santon Ki Ninda Ko Khatarnak Bataya Hai.Aur Ninda Karne wala Kitna Bada Papi hai aur Bhangan (Gandgi saaf karne wali Aurut) ke barabar hai aur Manmukh (Jo guru ke khilaf ho).” Lekin Tumhara Kya Kahana Tum to unse bhi aage ho tumne use display hi nahi kiya. Is baat se pata Chalta Hai ki tumhe Sach se Kitna Dar Lagta Hai” Lekin Daro mat sach ko kitna bhi chupa lo Sach to ek Din samne Aana hi Hai.
Raju Insaan | 09.08.07 – 8:34 am | #

——————————————————————————–

I join you in fervently hoping that the truth does come out!

Sikhism does, indeed, advocate not saying bad things about ‘Sants’ (Saints). However, the point here is that your man does not really appear to be a saint. From the manner that he has been trying to influence ongoing investigations against him, on charges of murder and sexual abuse, in his favour, it is evident that he has something to hide. I sincerely hope that free and fair trials will be conducted in all the cases against him and his followers and that the victims and their families will get justice.

The parts of Mannat Gill’s comments that I edited were about causing physical harm to your baba i.e. the Dera chief. I am not in favour of that and would rather see him being brought to justice by the honourable courts.

None of your comments have been edited so far and have been truncated, if at all, only because of Haloscan’s maximum character limits for comments being exceeded.

However, I do reserve the right to edit any comments, as and when and in any manner that I find fit.

If any of your comments is edited in the future, you will see the text ‘Edited By Siteowner’ below it.

In any case, you are free to have your own opinions and to believe whatever you wish to about me and my blog.

“Wah! koi blog chalana to tumse sikhe…” Well, thank you so much for the compliment!
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 09.08.07 – 9:12 am | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

Sidhusheeb

Tumhare Logic to waise hi bahut Hi-Fi Hai jo Tumne Akal Takht ke Bycott ke Hukam Name ko Mahatma Gandi Ke Bycott se Link kar Diya. Mr. App ko Pata Hona Chahiya ki Mahatma Gandhi Ne British Saman ka Boycott karne ke liya Request kiya tha na ki kisi Admi ka. Lekin Akal Takhat Ne to Ek Aisi Religious Organization aur Uske Followers Ka Bycott Karne Ko Kaha Hai Jisne Ajj Tak Kisi ka Kuch Nahi Bigada Balki Har Emergency SItuation mein Logon Ki Help Ki Hai.

Aur Mahatma Gandhi Ne bhi Sirf Request Kiya Tha Na Ki Hukam Diya Tha Jabki Akal Takhat Ne to Sabhi Sikho Ko Dharam Ka Hawala Dete Hue yeh Hukam Diya Hai Ki Sabhi Loga Dera Aur Dera Sach Sauda Followers Ka Boycott Karen.

Aur Apko Pata Hona Chahiye Is boycott se Tang Aakar Abhi tak 4 followers Apne ap ko aag lagakar Sucide Kar Chuke Hain. Jisme se 3 mans and 1 lady hai. In becharo ka Kya Kasoor tha sirf itna hi unhone Sikh Logon Ke Kahne Par Dera Ko Nahi Choda Aur Unhe Jabardasti SIkh Dharam Apnane Ko Kaha Gaya. Jabki Dera Mein Kisi Ka Dharam Nahi Badla JAta Aur 3 Log Pahle Se Hi SIkh The Aur Ek Hindu Tha Aur unpar Jabardasti SIkh Dharam Ke Riwaj Ke anusar sirope lene ke liye mazboor kiya ja raha tha.
Sikh dharam mein kab likha hai ki kisi ko itna tang Karo ki wo Sucide hi kar le aur bhi dharam ke Naam par. Kitna bada majak kar rahe ho tum sab log sikh guron ki siksha ke sath. Ajj sikh Dharam ko Dil Se man ne wal to koi koi hai baki sab to dikhwa hi kar rahe hain.
Raju Insaan | 09.08.07 – 9:34 am | #

——————————————————————————–

“Tumhare Logic to waise hi bahut Hi-Fi Hai…” Thanks for that compliment too!

Also, thanks for taking the time to air your views here!

Regarding the analogy with Gandhiji’s satyagraha, as I have mentioned in an earlier comment, the Mahatma used boycott as a form of protest against something that was wrong and the Akal Takht has decided to do the same.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 09.08.07 – 9:59 am | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

From your comments its seems you are totally sick by thinking.
As in the previous comment i asked you how sikhs are following their religion by forcing somebody for shuning their faith in someone and accepting the sikh upto such a extent that he commit suicide after facing so much mental torture. But as i am seeing you were never ready to answer such questions. You know how much cruelity they are showing towards any Dera follower who is not ready to leave his faith in Dera. Is it religious work no never it is a cruel action. Because i know there is no body in the sikh clergy and leaders who follow there religion in right manner. Because they just want to shine there politics noting else.Tell me how anybody can use a religious place like Gurudwaras to preach hatered speech where they have establish their guru as a book. How any body can speak hatred thoughts in front of his guru.Tell me you would have been able to speak harshly to anybody If today your guru would have been present here in body form. This shows you dont consider your holy book as a guru because one side you say we respect it as a guru on the other side you speak any thing wrong for others in the presence of your guru (holy book sri guru granth sahib).
Raju Insaan | 09.09.07 – 5:25 am | #

——————————————————————————–

“From your comments its seems you are totally sick by thinking.”

Actually, that is exactly the opinion that I have formed about you, after reading your comments. Aap ne toh mere muNh ki baat chheen li!

As for instances of ‘cruelty’, as I have posted in earlier comments, please see:

http://www.tehelka.com/ story_mai…uch_vice_CS.asp

http://www.tehelka.com/ story_mai…07It_was_CS.asp

By the way, whether the members of the Sikh clery and leadership or the clergy and leadership of any other religion follow their religion properly or not, the point here is that what the Dera chief and his followers have been up to is gravely wrong and have to be brought to justice for that. The process has already begun. I hope it will come to its logical conclusion very soon.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 09.09.07 – 9:48 am | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

“I hope it will come to its logical conclusion very soon…” You are absolutely right,I think First and last time you said any logical sentence and last time because i cant except anything more logical than this from you

Thoda Sa wait karo Sab Kuch Samne aa jayega ki kaun sacha hai aur kaun jootha hai,Tab tumhe pata chalega ki tum kis waham mein jee rahe the. Aaj jarror wo log parde ke peeche chup kar sab tamasha dekh rahe hain lekin jayada der nahi dekh payenge. Aaj wo log shayad soch rahe hain ki unke paas POLITICAL POWER unke paas hain to unko koi pakad nahi sakta, LEKIN WO LOG JAYADA KUSH NA HO KYONKI MAILIK KE SANTON KO JO LOG BADNAM KARNA CHAHTE HAIN WO JAYADA DER CHUP NAHI SAKTE

Sab Samne aa jayega ki kis tarah se kuch logon ne Dera Sacha Sauda Ko badnam karne ke liye apna Sab kuch Daav par laga rakha hai aur bahut jald wo sabhi jail mein honge.

Mujhe tumhe aur kuch nahi kahna hai kyonki main jaanta hoon ki tumhare paas apni baat ko rakhne ke liye koi logic nahi hai ya to tum meri 10 baaton mein se 1 baat lekar usi ko tarod marod kar bol dete ho iske ilawa tumhare paas kahne ko WISE BHI kuch bhi nahi hai.

Main yahan kuch aur kah kar apna time nahi waste karna chahoonga.

Haan Itna Jaroor kahoonga ki thoda wait karo, Time Aane par sab sajish samne aa jayegi aur un BADE BADE logon ke naam bhi jo Dera Sach Sauda Ko Badnam Karna Chahte Hain…

Aur MAIN TO YAHI KAHOONGA KI Bagwan Tumhe Bhi Thoda Honsla De Kyonki Tumhe bhi to us din bahut bada jhatka Lagega na jab sab kuch samne aayega aur un logon Ko lagna hi hai jab unke naam samne aayenge jo is sab ke piche hain…

**ISLIYE ABHI kah raha hoon TUM BHI AAJ JITNA JOOTH BOLNA HAI BOL LO, jitna masala tumhare paas hai na SAARA MASALA NIKAL kar laga LO TAKI SACH KO CHUPA SAKO aur Tumhare blogs bhi Kai Sites par kuch DIN aur chal Jayen, Kyonki jis Din Sach samne aayega na shayad tum sharam ke mare tum apne blog band kar loge aur tumhare pas us din likhne ke liye aur koi jooth nahi bachega, KYONKI TUM JAISE LOG JISE KISI MATTER KA “A” BHI NAHI PATA HOTA, USKE BARE BLOG LIKHNE BAITH JATE HAIN.
Raju Insaan | 09.09.07 – 7:15 pm | #

——————————————————————————–

Could your false bravado absolve your Baba and his men of his crimes? Doesn’t seem likely…

Meanwhile, the ‘logical conclusion’ means ‘guilty, as charged’ and a conviction.

I agree that you have wasted a lot of time, yours as well as mine.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 09.10.07 – 5:48 pm | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

I have very true information and it is 100 percent true. Beleive it or not. I am just a normal person like you and would like to share this informtion with you. I met this individual and he is hiding and was used to involve in khalistan movement at one point.
According to him Lakhbir Singh Rodhe (nephew of bhinderwala), Ajaib Singh, Baba, Gurjant Singh Budhwala and Ranjeet Singh ALIAS GURMEET RAM RAHIM SINGH Stayed together in Lahore 1987. He also told that GURMEET RAM RAHIM was married with one kid and ongoing dispute with his wife. I am not sure if that’s true or not. He also mentioned several other confidential things. He told that RAM RAHIM was responsible for supply of guns, bullets and food. RAM RAHIM was clean shaven at that time.
TRUST ME THE INFORMATION IS TRUE. YOU SHOULD INVESTIGATE IT.
Confidential Info | 09.18.07 – 12:26 am | #

Sidhusaaheb said...

Yes…..all the so called people belonging to the category of ‘Sidhusaaheb & Sifar’.. hope you are keeping track of the news…. Truth has begun to prove itself….check out!!! with ur false stories u have gained enough of popularity for ur blog… Truth will slap ur face, your soul…your very own existence….I still pray.. May God forgive you and give you the power(and brains) to see the truth and come out of your false Ego.

cheers
PIDDUSAAHEB.
PidduSaaheb | 10.27.07 – 4:44 pm | #

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May God forgive your Baba too, dear Piddu, for humans might find that rather difficult to do!

In a country where the likes of Jagdish Tytler, HKL Bhagat, etc., could not be brought to justice, despite evidence against them, bringing your baba to justice is obviously going to be no easy task.
Sidhusaaheb | Homepage | 10.27.07 – 5:45 pm | #

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